12 April 2009
The Veggie Meal ( Part 2)
13/04/09 19:42
In part one of The Veggie Meal, I mentioned how excited I was to be going to New York to hear Dr. David Mech speak about the parallels between dog and wolf nutrition and behavior. Unfortunately, Dr. Mech opened his seminar by explaining that not only did he not have a dog himself, but that he could not state that any information he had would correlate with dog behavior or biology. In fact he was a little baffled by our desire to know about these things specifically and his answer to many of the bulletin points was “we don’t know” . Hmm, that was a bummer! You would think the people hosting the seminar would have thought to send him a copy of the flier they were using to advertise/promote the seminar...LOL.
What did come to light, over the course of the seminar was that wolves (and by association dogs) would eat pretty much anything they could to stay alive. While optimally, they need meat, bone, organs, fat and blood to thrive, they can also eat poop, vomit, trash dumpster pickings, plants and bugs if necessary. This point was hammered in over and over with one question after another. Dr. M “yes, the lady in the back in the red t-shirt” - (Lady in Red T-shirt) “umm, so would a wolf/dog eat wild grass?” Dr. M - “Yes, they do forage and occasionally browse the very sweet young spring grasses and occasionally use grass to make themselves vomit - yes, the lady in the black shirt ? (lady in black shirt) “Umm so are you saying they might eat fruit?
Dr. M “yes, they might if they are hungry, eat over ripened fruit on the ground, or possibly pick through a dumpster and find human food waste that may include fruit - yes, the gentleman in front? (gentleman in front) “so, what you are saying is they do eat fruit and veggies”.... Dr. M “well, yes, but not as their main source of food or even as a very large part of the diet. As I explained, even when they catch prey that would be smaller and may have eaten vegetation, once they get the stomach out, they will shake it until the contents are entirely dispersed. If they have adequate food, they may avoid the stomach all together because of the bitterness of the acid contents. They don’t actively seek out the stomach to eat it for its contents. They will eat the feces in the intestines and may gain valuable digestive aid and additional nutrients that way. Yes, the lady in the back in blue? (lady in blue) “oh, so you don’t think they seek out rabbits and smaller prey so they can eat their stomach contents pre-digested? (lady in blue sounds hopeful, but wistful....) Dr. M “no,they don’t” (lady in blue) “umm, so, would a wolf eat a water melon?”
(entire front row replies ) YES!!!! IF HE WERE HUNGRY ENOUGH! LOL
Dr. Mech was a delight to listen to once you got past the initial disappointment that he couldn’t answer our dog focused questions specifically. His videos were amazing and we all learned a LOT about wolf behavior and a little about wolf diet. He seemed to thoroughly enjoy himself once we got past the “wolves aren’t dogs so lets talk about wolves” part. He was confounded by the number of questions he received about dog poop. Apparently wolf poop is a semi-liquid splat that they pass while on the move. After the fifth or sixth question about size, volume, odor, frequency and color of poop, he suggested that dog people should perhaps have other hobbies to distract them! ROFL! He was also baffled by the lady who asked when did the wolves eat their recreational bones?
Dr. Mech did go on to explain that the most studied mammal of all is man and we still can’t determine exactly what we should be eating or not eating for optimal nutrition. Studies contradict each other, new research reveals more complex relationships between individual components then previously thought (for example, do the French have healthier hearts because they drink red wine? or do they have healthier hearts because they walk more (perhaps to shop for and to bring home red wine)?
There are certain things that have been studied and are known about dog anatomy and nutrition. Dog food companies particularly wish to know how little protein can a dog survive on? (bottom line profits), how much is optimum without being excess (marketing as premium diet), what kind of errors will kill your pets (not enough taurine in early versions of dry cat food). There is some very interesting reading available in various studies done by the pet food companies and more. I believe it is the waltham book of companion animal nutrition that states that dogs (and cats even more so) have no need for carbohydrates!
So, while dogs have no nutritional need for carbohydrates (which is why commercial dog food is not good for them) it is possible that the micro-nutrients within fruits and veggies are beneficial to our pets nutritionally. While they have not got the ability to digest carbohydrates efficiently, if they are prepared adequately (pulped, mashed, blended, frozen, cooked or a combination of these) they may well have some benefit beyond the pleasure of eating/tasting the fruits/veggies. The exception would be cancer dogs, who should be on zero carbs.
I have always continued to feed veggies to my dogs, but over time I have fed less and less, usually in the form of a mix or blend made commercially or as a rehydrated fruit/veggie combination. My dogs enjoy browsing on spring grasses, and munch like a herd of moose on my fresh lemongrass in the back yard. I have just started growing some herbs and they seem to be very excited about the mint and chives.
Word of caution - dogs prone to epilepsy/seizures should avoid exposure to rosemary as it is possibly a trigger to seizure activity in susceptible dogs.
So, to summarize, should dogs eat veggies? Yes, if they are healthy and you a)have time to prepare them and b) they appear to enjoy them.
What did come to light, over the course of the seminar was that wolves (and by association dogs) would eat pretty much anything they could to stay alive. While optimally, they need meat, bone, organs, fat and blood to thrive, they can also eat poop, vomit, trash dumpster pickings, plants and bugs if necessary. This point was hammered in over and over with one question after another. Dr. M “yes, the lady in the back in the red t-shirt” - (Lady in Red T-shirt) “umm, so would a wolf/dog eat wild grass?” Dr. M - “Yes, they do forage and occasionally browse the very sweet young spring grasses and occasionally use grass to make themselves vomit - yes, the lady in the black shirt ? (lady in black shirt) “Umm so are you saying they might eat fruit?
Dr. M “yes, they might if they are hungry, eat over ripened fruit on the ground, or possibly pick through a dumpster and find human food waste that may include fruit - yes, the gentleman in front? (gentleman in front) “so, what you are saying is they do eat fruit and veggies”.... Dr. M “well, yes, but not as their main source of food or even as a very large part of the diet. As I explained, even when they catch prey that would be smaller and may have eaten vegetation, once they get the stomach out, they will shake it until the contents are entirely dispersed. If they have adequate food, they may avoid the stomach all together because of the bitterness of the acid contents. They don’t actively seek out the stomach to eat it for its contents. They will eat the feces in the intestines and may gain valuable digestive aid and additional nutrients that way. Yes, the lady in the back in blue? (lady in blue) “oh, so you don’t think they seek out rabbits and smaller prey so they can eat their stomach contents pre-digested? (lady in blue sounds hopeful, but wistful....) Dr. M “no,they don’t” (lady in blue) “umm, so, would a wolf eat a water melon?”
(entire front row replies ) YES!!!! IF HE WERE HUNGRY ENOUGH! LOL
Dr. Mech was a delight to listen to once you got past the initial disappointment that he couldn’t answer our dog focused questions specifically. His videos were amazing and we all learned a LOT about wolf behavior and a little about wolf diet. He seemed to thoroughly enjoy himself once we got past the “wolves aren’t dogs so lets talk about wolves” part. He was confounded by the number of questions he received about dog poop. Apparently wolf poop is a semi-liquid splat that they pass while on the move. After the fifth or sixth question about size, volume, odor, frequency and color of poop, he suggested that dog people should perhaps have other hobbies to distract them! ROFL! He was also baffled by the lady who asked when did the wolves eat their recreational bones?
Dr. Mech did go on to explain that the most studied mammal of all is man and we still can’t determine exactly what we should be eating or not eating for optimal nutrition. Studies contradict each other, new research reveals more complex relationships between individual components then previously thought (for example, do the French have healthier hearts because they drink red wine? or do they have healthier hearts because they walk more (perhaps to shop for and to bring home red wine)?
There are certain things that have been studied and are known about dog anatomy and nutrition. Dog food companies particularly wish to know how little protein can a dog survive on? (bottom line profits), how much is optimum without being excess (marketing as premium diet), what kind of errors will kill your pets (not enough taurine in early versions of dry cat food). There is some very interesting reading available in various studies done by the pet food companies and more. I believe it is the waltham book of companion animal nutrition that states that dogs (and cats even more so) have no need for carbohydrates!
So, while dogs have no nutritional need for carbohydrates (which is why commercial dog food is not good for them) it is possible that the micro-nutrients within fruits and veggies are beneficial to our pets nutritionally. While they have not got the ability to digest carbohydrates efficiently, if they are prepared adequately (pulped, mashed, blended, frozen, cooked or a combination of these) they may well have some benefit beyond the pleasure of eating/tasting the fruits/veggies. The exception would be cancer dogs, who should be on zero carbs.
I have always continued to feed veggies to my dogs, but over time I have fed less and less, usually in the form of a mix or blend made commercially or as a rehydrated fruit/veggie combination. My dogs enjoy browsing on spring grasses, and munch like a herd of moose on my fresh lemongrass in the back yard. I have just started growing some herbs and they seem to be very excited about the mint and chives.
Word of caution - dogs prone to epilepsy/seizures should avoid exposure to rosemary as it is possibly a trigger to seizure activity in susceptible dogs.
So, to summarize, should dogs eat veggies? Yes, if they are healthy and you a)have time to prepare them and b) they appear to enjoy them.
The Veggie Meal (Part 1)
13/04/09 19:33
I am often asked about veggie meals for dogs. Should dogs eat veggies? Do dogs need veggies?
Lets start with a definitive - Maybe!
When Dr. Billinghurst broke onto the raw feeding scene back in the eighties, he was the dietary guru that many based their feeding plans on. He recommended high percentages of RMB’s (Raw Meaty Bones), relatively high levels of veggies and fruits, to be served pulped/pulverized, moderate amounts of organs (offal)and grains and specific recommendations for vitamin supplements. I have spoken with him via email several times, he seems a jovial sort, willing to help and advise based on his experience.
His dietary guidelines certainly allowed me to completely change the way I fed my animals, but at the time it seemed hard to keep up with some of the specific demands. One of those was the “veggie meal”. I remember shopping carefully for leafy greens, plump summer squash, fruits and herbs. Then I would haul home the bounty and begin to wash, sort, chop and separate it ready to put it all through the juicer. I would then spend probably an hour juicing and combining fruits and veggies until I felt I had created something my dogs would appreciate. I would carefully re-mix the veggie pulp and the juice, then pour a cup or so into each of my Great Dane’s bowls, and then portion the rest into plastic tubs to freeze for the next weeks “veggie meal”.
I found that most of the time they ate the veggies, occasionally I made a particularly fabulous batch and they seemed to really enjoy them. I also made some stinkers that they refused to eat without adding offal/organs or meat to it to make it worthy of their attention. One time, I really made a mistake and added too much broccoli, which, alone was bad enough but when I added several raw eggs to make it palatable, compounded the situation. Poor Sarah, who was at the time a toddler and directly in the “line of fire” still talks about “the time you fed the dogs broccoli and eggs and they had THAT gas” - the poor child will be forever scarred by the experience - and multiple Danes with gas definitely qualifies as an experience!
As with any trend, over time some of the “BARFers” (Bones and Raw Food) began to splinter off into another camp and they became the “Prey Model Feeders” who’s cause was championed by another Aussie vet, Dr. Tom Lonsdale. The prey model feeders were a more aggressive, often more strident crowd that poo-pooed the ideas of Billinghurst specifically and seemed certain that Prey Model was the Holy Grail of raw feeding. The biggest difference (other than the more abrasive and confrontational tone) was reduced bone, more muscle, the need to fast your dog and adamantly NO VEGGIES! In fact, this crowd was quite convinced that if you fed veggies or fruits to your dogs or anything less than a moose in the back yard for them to scavange over time, you would more than likely burn in hell for eternity. This led to some interesting “exchanges” on various forums and sadly, a lot less discussion. The raw feeding community appeared to be split pretty much between the two camps with newcomers more confused than ever by the contrary opinions and opposing feeding styles.
As someone who “wants to KNOW” the answers, I decided to attend a seminar about wolves, hosted by Dr. David Mech several years ago. The flier had bulletin points about the items that would be discussed and promised boundless information about what a pregnant dog should eat, what the pups would eat, how prey was consumed and which parts were favored all based on the studies of Dr Mech based on wolves, and there, on that list was “do wolves eat veggies?”. Finally, my chance to know. I’ll go more into what happened at that seminar in my next post.
Lets start with a definitive - Maybe!
When Dr. Billinghurst broke onto the raw feeding scene back in the eighties, he was the dietary guru that many based their feeding plans on. He recommended high percentages of RMB’s (Raw Meaty Bones), relatively high levels of veggies and fruits, to be served pulped/pulverized, moderate amounts of organs (offal)and grains and specific recommendations for vitamin supplements. I have spoken with him via email several times, he seems a jovial sort, willing to help and advise based on his experience.
His dietary guidelines certainly allowed me to completely change the way I fed my animals, but at the time it seemed hard to keep up with some of the specific demands. One of those was the “veggie meal”. I remember shopping carefully for leafy greens, plump summer squash, fruits and herbs. Then I would haul home the bounty and begin to wash, sort, chop and separate it ready to put it all through the juicer. I would then spend probably an hour juicing and combining fruits and veggies until I felt I had created something my dogs would appreciate. I would carefully re-mix the veggie pulp and the juice, then pour a cup or so into each of my Great Dane’s bowls, and then portion the rest into plastic tubs to freeze for the next weeks “veggie meal”.
I found that most of the time they ate the veggies, occasionally I made a particularly fabulous batch and they seemed to really enjoy them. I also made some stinkers that they refused to eat without adding offal/organs or meat to it to make it worthy of their attention. One time, I really made a mistake and added too much broccoli, which, alone was bad enough but when I added several raw eggs to make it palatable, compounded the situation. Poor Sarah, who was at the time a toddler and directly in the “line of fire” still talks about “the time you fed the dogs broccoli and eggs and they had THAT gas” - the poor child will be forever scarred by the experience - and multiple Danes with gas definitely qualifies as an experience!
As with any trend, over time some of the “BARFers” (Bones and Raw Food) began to splinter off into another camp and they became the “Prey Model Feeders” who’s cause was championed by another Aussie vet, Dr. Tom Lonsdale. The prey model feeders were a more aggressive, often more strident crowd that poo-pooed the ideas of Billinghurst specifically and seemed certain that Prey Model was the Holy Grail of raw feeding. The biggest difference (other than the more abrasive and confrontational tone) was reduced bone, more muscle, the need to fast your dog and adamantly NO VEGGIES! In fact, this crowd was quite convinced that if you fed veggies or fruits to your dogs or anything less than a moose in the back yard for them to scavange over time, you would more than likely burn in hell for eternity. This led to some interesting “exchanges” on various forums and sadly, a lot less discussion. The raw feeding community appeared to be split pretty much between the two camps with newcomers more confused than ever by the contrary opinions and opposing feeding styles.
As someone who “wants to KNOW” the answers, I decided to attend a seminar about wolves, hosted by Dr. David Mech several years ago. The flier had bulletin points about the items that would be discussed and promised boundless information about what a pregnant dog should eat, what the pups would eat, how prey was consumed and which parts were favored all based on the studies of Dr Mech based on wolves, and there, on that list was “do wolves eat veggies?”. Finally, my chance to know. I’ll go more into what happened at that seminar in my next post.